Ep.13: LinkedIn or Linked Out?
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About this episode.
In this episode of The Better Way?, Zach and Hui welcome back Alison Taylor (NYU professor, ethics expert, and celebrated author of Higher Ground) for a candid conversation about LinkedIn. Yes, you read that right! We're dedicating an episode to LinkedIn. What starts as a lighthearted look at LinkedIn etiquette (Alison’s pet peeve posts inspired the episode) evolves into a deeper exploration of how professionals use the platform to build voice, share ideas, and navigate the tension between authenticity and self-promotion.
Together, the trio unpacks the paradoxes of “influence,” the frustrations of the algorithm, and the echo chambers that often form in professional circles (a topic we’ve separately dedicated an entire episode to). They reflect on the platform’s role in shaping modern discourse and the broader implications for how professionals connect, communicate, and build credibility in a digital world. Whether you’re a lover of LinkedIn, think it’s the height of cringe, or both, the dynamic Alison Taylor is always worth a listen.
Who? Zach Coseglia + Hui Chen, CDE Advisors; Alison Taylor
Full Transcript:
ZACH: Welcome back to The Better Way? Podcast brought to you by CDE Advisors. Culture. Data. Ethics. This is a curiosity podcast for those who ask, “There has to be a better way, right? There just has to be.” I'm Zach Coseglia and I am joined, as always, by my dear friend, Hui Chen. Hi, Hui.
HUI: Hi, Zach. We're very, very pleased this morning to have a returning guest who's also a very good friend. So, Alison Taylor is no stranger to all of you, I'm sure. She is a clinical associate professor at NYU Stern School of Business and former Executive Director of Ethical Systems. We had the pleasure of speaking with her last year about her book, Higher Ground, which has been featured on the Financial Times list of the Best Business Books of 2024 and won a Porchlight Award for the Best Leadership and Strategy Book of 2024. Alison, welcome back. So good to have you.
ALISON: It's a delight to be here. I'm really excited for this conversation and it's just wonderful to see you both.
ZACH: Thanks, Alison.
HUI: Likewise.
ZACH: Welcome. Welcome back to The Better Way? One of the things Hui, didn't mention in her introduction is that, you're also one of our favorite voices on LinkedIn and probably one of the favorite voices of many of the folks who are listening to the podcast. Interestingly enough, LinkedIn is actually going to be the topic of our discussion today because you, Alison, inspired us with some of your just wonderful content, but more specifically, your periodic sharing of your LinkedIn pet peeves with us.
ALISON: Oh, yeah.
ZACH: Which we definitely want to talk a little bit about today. But yeah, the topic is, it started out as, let's talk about LinkedIn etiquette, but we're really also curious about just digging a little bit deeper about what our use of LinkedIn says about us as people and as professionals.
ALISON: Yeah.
ZACH: And for me, this is cathartic because I have a very challenging relationship with LinkedIn and I'm looking forward to discussing that with you today.
ALISON: I think we probably all do. I think we've probably all spent some time trying to understand how the algorithm works and how we can get our message across to the people we want to get it across to. And yeah, people seem to think I know what I'm talking about on this topic. I'm not sure I know much more than anybody else, but maybe we can kick around the big questions together and see where we land.
ZACH: Absolutely. Well, let's start with a kind of bigger question, which is, how would you describe your LinkedIn strategy, if you have one at all?
ALISON: I mean, I guess my strategy is still not to have a strategy. And I say that kind of deliberately because I think . . . I mean my follower growth was dramatically increased between around 2022 and 2024.
And I really noticed that that had an impact on how people reacted to me and how people reacted to my posts. And I think one of the things that happens is people start to expect you to comment on everything and to have an opinion on everything. And you get a lot more trolls and a lot more junk and a lot more people commenting on your post to try and drive traffic to their posts and a lot of people just arguing with you for the sake of it. And all these forces, I think, start to drive your posting in a certain direction and make you more cautious. And so, what I really tried to do is to act as if I've still got 5000 followers, act as if I'm still talking only about the things on my mind. You know, I'm not teeing up the posts in advance. I'm not spending a huge amount of time wordsmithing and planning them. And that's my effort to try and kind of retain the authenticity and engagement I had when I had a smaller, closer network—and frankly, it was more fun. So I feel all these forces kind of to try and drive me to try to post in a certain way now I've got a lot of followers, and I try to be resistant, though it doesn't always work.
HUI: So, I'm curious, your book came out in 2024. So, to what do you attribute the growth in your following prior to your book coming out?
ALISON: So, I mean, I think there are a few things, and I do think that there is, I've said this on LinkedIn. I think there was a LinkedIn sweet spot between kind of 5 and 15,000 followers. I actually think the algorithm likes accounts of that kind of size. I think you get a community. I think you can see other people's posts. I think you have this sense that you're in this kind of world of like-minded people. And so, you know, the period I was writing the book was the same period that this was going on.
And then the other thing I think that was really significant was I used LinkedIn to help me write the book. So in a really important way, I mean, I did this in the classroom as well. So both in the classroom and on LinkedIn, what I would be doing the whole time was testing an idea because I think one of the challenges when you're writing a book is who are you writing for and what can you assume that they know and what do you need to explain? And that's not necessarily intuitive. You can be like, well, this is really obvious and I don't need to explain it. But if you're really deep in the weeds on something, you don't necessarily know what's obvious and what isn't obvious. And so, I'd be playing around with an idea, like I'd be writing about transparency for example, and I'd share a sort of, here's what I’m think about this. Or here's my question, what do you think about this?
And then I would get these amazing insights and I'd get this kind of feedback from people. I'd often get new ideas, new papers, new links, new angles I hadn't thought of and so I was really . . . while I was writing, I'd be like, huh, I wonder what people think about this. And so it was genuinely so useful to me, and I was genuinely looking for answers to my questions. So I wasn't posting for engagement, I wasn't posting for likes, I was posting because I had a question and I wanted to see what my incredibility. Informed and smart network had to say about it and that I think is the best possible use of LinkedIn.
HUI: Very interesting. I like that.
ZACH: Indeed. Are you working on a project now such that we could interpret that? Perhaps you're testing some of the concepts for whatever you're working on to come in the future?
ALISON: I mean, I was just saying to Hui, I've got a very, very early-stage project. I've not fully kind of got going on it. I mean, if and when I do and the jury's out on that, but if and when I properly get going and I start to kind of really write drafts and dig into chapters, I would plan on doing exactly the same thing I would plan on doing exactly the same thing.
ZACH: Yeah.
ALISON: I've just been thinking about this and I've just come across this paper or this angle or this argument and what do you think, you know? And so I think in a world where a lot of people are trying to put out, like, here's my opinion. I see a lot of posts like that. Obviously, I see a lot of people trying to gain the algorithm. And I see a lot of people putting a lot of work and a lot of writing into the perfect post, where they sort of finish it off and they're like, that's what I think. And I actually think the best use of LinkedIn is to be more uncertain. If you genuinely want an answer on something, you can put a half formed thought up there and you'll get really good responses.
So I think people spend too much time trying to be perfect. And then I think the other thing, which is an advantage all three of us have that a lot of people don't have, is that a lot of people are really bound by what their employer wants or doesn't want them to say. So they've got to say nice things about their company, nice things about their job, nice things about their client, you know, and so if you're in a role where you've either got your own business or you're in academia, you've got a lot more freedom to have . . . and so you've got a built-in advantage there. And so, I think I would advise anyone listening that's not in that position, you know, they work for a law firm, they've got a very important consulting job or there's a limit to what they can say, I probably to advise those people, go and talk about a space that's not so directly connected to your work.
Go and carve out somewhere where you can have a little bit more of an opinionated perspective. Say something that is a little bit less bland, because I think that's the other thing about LinkedIn. It's a little bit bland. It's a little bit cringey as a platform. So if you can actually be distinctive and have an opinion because so many people aren't in that position, it's easier for you to differentiate yourself.
ZACH: Absolutely. And one of the things that I really admire about your posts, but also the way you talk about your approach, is this very confident and self-aware, I don't care if there's typos, I don't care if there's grammatical errors, I'm not going to spend hours crafting this post—and also, you seem to have quite a bit of resilience around on the trolls that do show up. How do you manage that? Because as I said, I have this very, I don't have that and I think it's created the complicated relationship that I have with LinkedIn. So how do you deal with that?
ALISON: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I have so many people say to me, you know, you're on LinkedIn all the time. Like how much time does that take? That must take hours out of every day. And it really doesn't. I've tried to kind of be like, I'm going to write this perfect post about this thing that's happening and I've spent hours on it. It doesn't do any better than something I wake up and I have too much coffee and I just knock something out really fast. The reactions are not noticeably based, you know, effort specific. So, I haven't found that the more effort you make, the more traction you got. In fact, quite often it's the really off the cuff thing I just kind of write in passing that does really well; and the thing I spend hours thinking about that doesn't. So, I think it's more important to be off the cuff. I think it's more important to be genuine. I certainly have typos and nits. I'll go back and correct them during the course of the day. I think it's fine. And I think what I lose in perfection, I gain in kind of dynamism and then I gain in time. In that I'm really not spending hours and hours crafting these things.
ZACH: Yeah.
ALISON: And often I think your first reaction's the right one, you know? I mean, often your first reaction to something, if you just share it, people are like, “Oh yeah!” Whereas if you're like, hmm, let me do this very detailed analysis, then I think you lose the spontaneity and maybe you lose some of the traction.
HUI: I think you're absolutely right. I remember relatively recently I posted something like on a Friday afternoon just because I was hit with something that frustrated me and I was like, you know, this is really frustrating. So I just threw it out. I was like, I don't even care who sees it. That was one of the posts that got a whole lot of engagement.
ALISON: Yeah. And I think there's a lesson in here about that. And I think, I love . . . for example, I don't know if this is the post you're talking about, but I've seen you kind of post about like, oh, more guidance from the DOJ, everybody overreacting, you know?
HUI: Yeah.
ZACH: Yawn, yes.
ALISON: Please be sensible about how to read this guidance from the DOJ. And that's like it's a perfect post. You’re the perfect person to have this opinion. Nobody else is having this opinion. Everybody else is kind of producing all these incredibly torturous guides to how to respond to this DOJ stuff’; and actually, your opinion is both more spontaneous and more right on the money and far more valuable than all these other law firm digests, so I find that very funny.
HUI: Well, thank you. I have to tell you, every time you see me writing something about a DOJ something or other, it's because Zach forced me.
ZACH: It's true.
ALISON: Oh, well, those are the posts I see, and I was like, bang, that's amazing. And that's who I want to hear from right now. So yeah.
ZACH: Yeah, well, and the reason that I'm always pushing for that is because I know that your voice Hui . . . I know that your voice is going to be different from what everyone else is putting out there on the topic. Now we also wish that people were as interested in talking about other things as they are talking about the DOJ and that's part of a little bit . . .
ALISON: Yeah. All right.
ZACH: . . . of the frustration. Let's talk about some of your pet peeves. I won't prime you with some of my favorites that I've seen you share. I want to hear what some of your top pet peeves are to share with our listeners.
ALISON: Oh God. I mean, there's so many. I personally, I've mentioned a few of them already on this call, like the people being like, “really interesting posts, what log on and read my blog or listen to my” . . . “or I don't like what you're talking about. Talk about this thing I want to talk about.” I just think that's really bad etiquette. Don't jump on comments on other people's posts and try and sell your services a step.
ZACH: Yes100%. Especially when they say in their response, “this is so insightful. I agree with you so much.” And then they post something that is like literally the exact opposite of what you've just said.
ALISON: Or just unconnected or they just haven't got the point. So that's super annoying. The other thing is the kind of like, you've posted a comment length thing and people are like . . . this is a big thing with climate deniers, like “you haven't provided the evidence.” “What evidence have you got to support the blah blah blah argument?” And it's kind of what these people are basically saying is go away, do PhD level research and come back and justify yourself to me. So that's obnoxious. I don't like people being like couldn't read this article because there was a paywall.
So, don't comment on the damn post. Like I think good media is worth paying for. Sorry, you don't. The media's in crisis. And then . . . I mean, “humbled,” “honoured.” Don't say you're humbled unless you actually screwed up on something. I think there's a sort of performative authenticity thing that drives me crazy. And then the thing that's driving me crazy right now is these formulaic AI posts. So, I do think there's a kind of narrative structure LinkedIn likes, it likes 3 to 4 paragraphs, it likes insight, it doesn't like articles. There's some sort of rules you can follow to a certain extent. And what I see is so much gumph being generated that sort of superficially follows these guideline points and it's just the same old stuff. So, I feel I'm really drowning in sort of AI generated slop right now.
ZACH: Definitely. I think if someone writes a book in a week, you might wonder whether or not AI helped them.
ALISON: You might wonder.
HUI: You might, yes.
ZACH: You might wonder. One of the pet peeves you didn't mention, but that now I am so attuned to is people referring to themselves as thought leaders?
ALISON: Oh my gosh, yeah, don't do that. Do I have to explain why not to do that to people? Like, don't do that. That's not a term. That's not a term you get to use about yourself. And if that's not obvious, I kind of don't know what to say.
ZACH: I think you do.
HUI: Yeah.
ZACH: But it really is rampant. It really is, yeah.
ALISON: Rampant, thought leaderism is rampant out there.
HUI: I don't even like that whole thought leadership term. I just never liked it.
ALISON: We all think. Like, you can be a writer, you can be a commentator, you can have opinion. You're not a leader of thought. Like, we've all got brains that we're allowed to use.
HUI: Exactly.
ZACH: That's right.
ALISON: The term I just can't have.
HUI: Me too. I never liked the term.
ALISON: No.
ZACH: Well, it's sort of the LinkedIn version of influencer which also makes me cringe. I also don't want that; but that's a nice segue to talk about some of the different ways in which folks use LinkedIn and to kind of unpack your thoughts on them. So, one of them is this idea of sort of building one's voice, building one's brand. And I guess let's just start there. Do you see value in that just as a concept?
ALISON: Gosh, I don't know. Again, I have a real problem with people thinking of themselves as brands. I have real problem with kind of what's happened to brands in general. I grew up in the 90s. Brands were cool or they were uncool. Brands didn't have, like, values and all this stuff, you know.
ZACH: I'm sure.
ALISON: I do think there is some benefit to saying: here is how I'm going to show up on this platform. Here is the remit of things I'm going to post about. I don't need to be out there posting about the Trump administration every day. If it is a development that is political, that has got something to do with my space—which is corporate responsibility, ethical conduct, or broadly defined. So I'm clear about whether a post is in my remit or not in my remit. And I think it's good to define a space, a set of topics you will talk about. People don't necessarily need your opinion about every news event.
If that's what it means to create a brand, then okay. That's not how I think about it. I think of it as kind of people I hope are interested in what I've got to say or want to join the conversation or want to share their ideas with me. They need to have an idea of what is the space I operate in. So I think that's good. I think having some definitions, having some criteria are good. But thinking about yourself as a brand and going out there trying to build your brand, I don't think that works. I think it's a little bit analogous to sort of shareholder value, right?
We need to create shareholder value to survive as a corporation. A corporation does not exist to create shareholder value. And it's kind of like you can build a profile and presence and network and set of media contacts. You're best off doing that posting things you're interested in that you think other people will be interested in. If you start to think “I am a brand and how can I build my brand,” I feel like that would all fall apart.
ZACH: Yeah. Well, and as an extension of that, one of the things that I am very curious about (and have some thoughts about) is how much “thought leader or influencer status” on LinkedIn actually translates to real professional influence—like, out in the real world. And I think it varies, but I think a lot of the times there is misalignment between those two things.
ALISON: Yeah, I think people maybe overreact to a lot of LinkedIn posting. I mean, one thing for sure that the amount of posting I do on LinkedIn has done for me is build a lot of journalist and media relationships. So, I have a huge network of journalists who call me, who ask me for quotes. A lot of them find me on LinkedIn, so there's a very, very clear relationship there. And then if I start to show up a lot in the mainstream media being quoted on stuff, then I do think that helps corporate advisory relationships. But I would find it very hard to say I do this much posting and it's brought in this much work or anything like that.
So, I think it's about your public profile and about what you're seen as an expert on. But I'm not primarily using the platform to say, book a consult with me or something like that. So maybe I'm not making enough of it, but I feel like that would take all the joy and all the fun out of it in the first place. So I don't really want to think of it that way. I think it would then become a burden and I would stop saying anything interesting, you know? So again, I sort of think the more you think about it, the harder it gets to pull it off, if you're with me.
ZACH: What about as an educator who's got a fresh crop of students who are looking for jobs? Do you see them using it as a tool to meaningfully get that next role? Or is it really not that.
ALISON: I don't . . . I mean, I feel like everyone got the memo that you're supposed to network and the result of it is that . . . and probably both of you as well, absolutely drown in networking requests. So, I get many requests every week kind of, let's have a Zoom intro call.
HUI: Yes.
ALISON: At this point, I do not do zoom intro calls without an agenda. So, if you are in . . . if you are one of my students and in one of my classes, I will always have a call with you. I will always help you. I will also always open my network to you. I have at least 200 to 250 students a term. So that's already my top priority. And then I got another layer of people. And then of course there's the random people that reach out. There's also the, “do you mind just talking to my nephew? Do you mind just talking to my godson?” People you can't really say no to. So I could happily fill my calendar every week with LinkedIn intro calls and it's not feasible.
ZACH: Yeah. Let's talk about . . . let's go back to a topic that we hit on a little bit earlier about the reach or the echo chamber of it all. I've been feeling lately, and I feel like I've seen you either comment on LinkedIn or I've read quotes that you've given to publications. I think there was a recent piece in the Financial Times talking about the reach feeling like it's changed recently and that the algorithm is sort of maybe showing your post more to people outside of your network far less than it had before.
ALISON: Yeah. So, there's two . . . I mean, the first thing to say is the algorithm . . . we can all spend too long trying to analyze the algorithm, but the algorithm's got like a breadth metric and a depth metric. So, you can have a post that has relatively few views and will have low loads and loads of likes and it's being highly exposed to your existing network, but very little to new people. Or you can have a post, and LinkedIn will show that to loads of new people and you'll have relatively few likes, but like maybe 100,000 views.
So, it's possible to look like it's a very successful post and have very, very high engagement with relatively few views—and vice versa. And something I've definitely noticed above 50,000 followers is my follower growth has dramatically dropped and my posts are getting shown to my network, but not to new people nearly as much. And that's fine. My network's probably big enough, right? I don't know, gaining more followers is not really a priority at this point, but it's just interesting to see that. And I think you need to have a lot of followers to see how the algorithm is behaving because if you don't have enough, you kind of can't see to the same clarity.
So, I think the other thing that's really fascinating is the more followers you have, the more obvious it becomes how powerless you really are and how you're just working for the algorithm. It's sort of this paradox of sort of loss of control and loss of power.
ZACH: Yeah.
ALISON: Just as you appear to have all this influence. So that's a sort of fascinating thing, really.
ZACH: I mean, we did an episode probably a month ago, maybe a little bit more, that focused on us intentionally using the episode to get out of the echo chamber of the culture, compliance, risk space. And we didn't talk about LinkedIn in that context, but LinkedIn was part of what inspired us to have that discussion because it feels like, sometimes, what you just described is happening, but in a negative way. Where we are reaching the same people, the same people are reaching us, and we're just, like, yelling into this void at each other about things that we all agree on already and have agreed on for a very long time.
ALISON: I know. And I try to . . . the degree I kind of try not to. There are sort of posts you can put out where people are going to be like, yeah, that's awful and everyone will kind of get behind it. We'll all be like, yeah, we all feel the same. And then you're like, what did that do? So I try and avoid that. I 100% agree it's a giant issue and it leads to this very kind of bland, not very interesting reading. So, every time I get some super annoying troll or someone arguing with me for the sake of it, I'm like, well, at least it's not an echo chamber.
ZACH: I guess that's true. I have the opposite issue recently where I'm just sitting here reading what's sort of in my feed, what people are saying. And look, we run a firm called Culture. Data. Ethics. Culture is very important to us. It's important to the work we do. I think we have a pretty evolved view of how it intersects with the work that we do. But every day there's just another post on there about culture is really important to managing risk. And I'm like, yes it is. We know this. We have known this for a very long time. Bring me something new. I find that very frustrating.
ALISON: And I think that's true. And I think the upside of this is you can differentiate yourself if you're saying something somewhat different. But there are a lot. I mean, this is so the case in sustainability, which is another kind of world I see a lot of people posting and you see the same kind of tropes and the same ideas, and “we've just got to keep going.” “We've got to push the boulder uphill.” And “I don't know why everyone keeps attacking us.” And I just see a lot of, yeah, let's just keep doing the same thing over and over again from a lot of different communities. So that's not helping anyone.
HUI: But I guess my question as I'm listening to this is, is LinkedIn the right platform to either change minds or educate people to different perspectives? To what extent is it the right platform to do any of those at all? Is it?
ALISON: I mean, we could argue that it isn't, but I can't think of a . . . unless you're going to go and have a Substack, which is then that's another, then you're really trying to create a brand. So I sort of think it like capitalism is the worst system apart from all the others, like LinkedIn is the worst platform apart from all the others. So, what LinkedIn’s got going for it as it likes 3-4 paragraphs. It likes a bit of depth. It likes a bit of analysis. I've got no Twitter game because what Twitter wants really is a snappy one liner. I'm not very good at that. I need at least a couple of paragraphs to kind of unpack my thoughts.
HUI: Exactly, yes.
ALISON: Other than Facebook, LinkedIn, I think, is the only platform that allows you to unpack your thoughts in a sort of mini blog length. But it has become very clear to me recently that I don't have the direction or control or influence to control who I'm . . . who's seeing what, to the degree I like; and I am wondering, I feel very, very dependent on this platform, which is, there's no money changing hands. It's just that, I mean it could collapse tomorrow and I would lose 60,000 followers. So, I think there is something about diversification and something about kind of how we all need to expand and think about our voices going forward. A podcast is one really good idea. But yeah, there's something a little scary about the degree to which these platforms have control over us.
HUI: Indeed.
ZACH: Can we talk for a moment about self-promotion. It's obviously one of the most popular uses of the platform and what I'm curious about is how do we know what's real and what isn't? Which is probably a question we could ask about just about anything in our very challenging modern world. But how do we know what's real and what isn't? We see people posting for awards, like “I won this award.” But if you're curious, you might find out that that award actually required a pretty hefty fee. You know, you see someone posting.
ALISON: Oh my God, segue into pay to play ethics awards, please. No, to all the awards like, you know, no to . . . I mean, I also saw a great post recently about “you were number 59 in government, the government administration category on Amazon for your book.” You know, that doesn't mean you're an Amazon personal and it's sort of similar.
ZACH: Yeah. But the challenging thing I think for some folks is it's like I'm not going to do it. I actually would find it embarrassing to do it, but other people are. And should that be a consideration when we're thinking about how we use these platforms to carve out our own space.
ALISON: I mean, I think so. I think there's a whole sort of set of self-promotion. There's a whole set of awards. There's a whole kind of ecosystem of this stuff that I think most of us can see through. I guess I'd also make the argument that it's less obnoxious. I mean, it's fine, I think to go out there and say, “I'm so thrilled I won this award.” That's awesome. It's the kind of humble bragging and the kind of, oh, let me just thank all these other people and let me tag these millions of other people and let me just kind of pretend I'm humble. I find that worse than the straight up posting.
ZACH: Yeah.
ALISON: So, I think if you're kind of genuinely sort of upfront about it, “I did really well and I'm really proud of this,” that comes off okay. I think if you're like sort of deeply humbled to have received this bullshit award, you know, then I don't know.
ZACH: Exactly. That is the way it is. It's usually framed, yeah.
HUI: Yeah, it gives me a chance to give my Academy Award speech online.
ALISON: Overwhelmed by the chance . . . and the selfies at Davos, I think is a sort of iteration. The selfies at Davos is bad, yeah.
ZACH: Oh yeah. Definitely. I was having this conversation with someone recently Hui, to the Academy Award speech. And I was like, you know what? If I want to give the Academy Award speech, I think what I need to do is to go win an Academy Award. That's what I'm going to do.
ALISON: Exactly.
HUI: That's exactly right.
ZACH: I'm not going to buy a magazine cover and then give my speech on LinkedIn, yeah.
HUI: Yes.
ALISON: Exactly. And it's all that stuff that I think just makes the platform less enjoyable and less interesting. But again, if you're saying something other than “I'm so humbled and I'm so wonderful and here's my job update,” then you've got a differentiation opportunity.
ZACH: Yeah. What is it all? What does it all mean? What do you think that what you're seeing on LinkedIn, all of the things that we've talked about, which are some of our pet peeves, but also some of the really good stuff that's out there? What does it say about us as people and as professionals?
ALISON: I think it says that people really want a venue to have a conversation. And we've talked I think about this in previous conversations as well. Like the conference circuit seems somewhat challenging right now. There's a lot of paid to play. I have gone historically to a lot of events where people on the stage are being paid to say something very bland and very obvious. I think there is a thirst for a kind of meaningful, authentic discussion and maybe no clear venue to put it there, you know. So I think there is . . . what I see is a thirst for connection and a thirst for meaningful sharing of ideas that is not being met outside LinkedIn and there seems to be a real gap in the market.
I am personally off LinkedIn, participating in many more kind of closed door off the record discussions than I used to. I have the impression the conference circuit is really, really struggling, partly because of the political climate, partly because saying anything risky is really dangerous. But the result is you've got a really, really bored audience who doesn't have anywhere to go for actually kind of rich ideas.
So, I think there is an appetite for that and just a lot of people slightly missing the point as they try to fill that gap. And then the other thing that we haven't spoken about that I think has been really significant to my kind of LinkedIn experience as a result of having a big network is, you become really aware how difficult it is to talk to different parts of your audience in a very specific way. So, I've had this experience of being kind of like, I'm going to Copenhagen. I would love to connect with everybody I know in Copenhagen. Or I'd love to make the offer to all the professors I know, feature my book, and I'll come and talk to you for free. Or I'd love to talk to people that are specifically working in behavioural science and compliance.
I can't do any of that. All I can do is make a phone out there and be like, “I'm in Copenhagen next week” and that will not be seen probably by anyone that I know in Denmark. And so it's hard to direct your message. I like what you just said about how you're trying to say something really interesting and sophisticated about culture and you're drowning in all these kind of bland culture posts. So, I think I get really frustrated with that. That I can't kind of direct my message, I can't pull in the people I want to pull in, I can't analyze my network, and so you end up, I think, in the same way with this really big network, but feeling somewhat powerless. You can't do anything other than yell out there and hope that the right people hear it.
ZACH: Yeah.
HUI: Yeah, I've experienced that. I think in the past when I've gone to a certain location, I would put it out on LinkedIn and the result it's not what I wanted. So now I end up spending a lot of time going through my contacts.
ALISON: Exactly.
HUI: In that location, and sometimes if they didn't update their location, that's not accurate. But at least I get to see if I'm going to New York City and I know like 500 people are there, but then I can do a certain type of filtering and so, at least that . . . you know, but you have to put in that work.
ALISON: Yes.
HUI: You can't just put it out there, yeah.
ALISON: Yeah, it's a lot of work. So, I think there's this interesting paradox of influence and control. And so I think people assume I've got all this power to influence the world because I've got a lot of LinkedIn followers. That's not how I experience it at all. I'll be like that post was really good. And they kind of killed it. Or that post was sort of “eh” and it's done amazing, and I'm kind of annoyed by that. So it's not kind of . . . you don't control the message in the way that you might want.
HUI: Yeah.
ZACH: Yeah.
HUI: So, I want to ask you something. If you were in control of LinkedIn tomorrow, how would you change it?
ALISON: I mean, I think you've got to be really careful about the second order consequences of what seems like a really good idea, you know? So, I would be wary of that. The things I would personally want, I think would be exactly as I just said, like a lot more ability to filter and analyze and direct messages to specific parts of my network. I would be prepared to put in the work to do that analysis, it's not really possible. You can sort of do it. It's a lot of work. It's very manual. It's sort of hit and miss. I got too many followers to do that. And so then, I could have really tailored content that would be really relevant to specific audiences, but then I don't know if what we would end up with is something so fragmented where we get even more of the echo chamber.
So these things, all these, I'm sure that the gods at LinkedIn have thought about this, like I do. I feel there's someone thoughtful behind this platform. I feel like the AI stuff aside, they are trying to prioritize smart quality content, which is another reason I like this platform above others. So I guess I would say that what I would want is much more ability to filter and direct my messages. But that might come with unintended consequences I wouldn't like. So maybe the answer is here, we've just got to live with it how it is.
ZACH: Well, one of the things that you just said that was really interesting and making the sort of connection to the conference circuits that I hadn't really thought about in this way before. We've been pretty hard on the conference circuits, I think fairly, but we've been pretty hard. But one of the things that we very much believe is that the reason to go is really less about the content and more about the people. It's about the experience of connecting with people in your field. And I do believe that you're much more likely to have a meaningful side conversation over lunch than you're going to have in any kind of main stage talk at most of the conferences that happened in our space.
ALISON: 100% true, but that's such a missed opportunity for what's going on stage.
ZACH: Such a missed opportunity, but it's actually very much the experience that I'm having on LinkedIn, as well; where I am going there to be connected with the people, but I'm finding myself often disappointed with some of the content. And I think that the problem is not that there isn't good content there. You're a great example of that. There is wonderful content. The problem is there's so much content that it's very hard to sift through and find the good stuff.
ALISON: Very hard. Like my newsfeed is a total mess and it feels like I'm being shown the same post from the same four people. And I want it . . . I don't remember it being like that before. So, it's got much more kind of concentrated in a weird way that again, the more followers I've got, it's like, again, the algorithm doesn't know quite how to behave. I know this on Instagram as well, actually, like, I'll click on some ad and then it will be like “oh, Alison wants a caftan.” And then it's caftans all the way down for 10 days; and it feels like that. You like something from some . . . and then like, “oh, Alison wants to hear from intellectual property lawyers this week.” And then I'm like kind of bombarded with that. And so again, that doesn't seem to be the kind of nuance variety in what I'm being directed to, which means at this point I have to go and specifically look at people's profiles and posts if I want to find out what they've said. And I used to feel I came across a lot more organic, interesting stuff.
ZACH: Yeah. Are there other voices that you look to that inspire you on LinkedIn? Anyone that you'd like to call out specifically?
ALISON: I mean, I love both of you two. I really love Guido Palazzo in Lausanne. Always really opinionated, always got a really good angle on business ethics. I like Solitaire Townsend very much on sustainability. She's really opinionated, really kind of punchy. There's a guy called Steven Klein. I don't know if you've come across him. He writes a lot about AI—posts prolifically, but always has a kind of neat . . . I mean, the AI posts are driving me completely crazy in general. I feel like there's this sort of very samey—and his are different. So those I think are some of the people that I like and I really follow, but there are lots more as well. It's just I'm kind of . . . I think part of my problem is again, like too much reach and I'm not being shown exactly what I want to see.
HUI: So tell me, this is a too personal question, but how much time would you say you spend on LinkedIn on a daily basis?
ALISON: I mean, if you want to calculate, I typically post first thing in the morning. I will wake up. I will have a big cup of coffee. I'll be like, what's annoying me this morning? And I'll just dash out a post. So that bit doesn't take long. 10 minutes, 20 minutes.
HUI: Okay.
ALISON: The harder thing to calculate is me dipping in and out during the day and keeping an eye on comments. I try to respond to comments, at least if they're sensible and not just with kind of like, “great comment,” you know. So, I'm trying to kind of genuinely engage and be grateful to the people that are coming back with an opinion and that stuff that's hard for me to say how much time I'm spending on that. But the actual reading and posting not more than 10, 15 minutes in the morning. And then the question is how much do I want to dip back during the day and kind of engage with the debate?
ZACH: That sounds very sensible. I put a two-minute limit on how long I'm allowed to have LinkedIn open on my phone a day. The problem is, this is a total study in behavioral science and the human mind. I can override it. And I often do, but just having that after 2 minutes it's like you're done and that's part of the way that I'm dealing with my somewhat complicated relationship with the platform.
ALISON: I think a time limit's not a bad idea. I mean, I certainly need them for other platforms as well. So yeah, I think some discipline, I think some rules, I think some . . . I'm going to engage in this way—like I go back to what I said earlier, which is, don't overthink the posts. The spontaneous stuff that's genuinely what you thought will do better over time. I'm pretty sure that's true from observation. And then the thing that's a real time suck for me that I really, really struggle with is not feeding the trolls. Like if someone says something annoying and I can think of a comeback, like, it kills me not to kind of come back and argue with them and I can get into these like back-and-forth arguments with people that are just absurd.
I'll give you an example I posted. I was on a flight back from London a few weeks ago and the business class and the first class were pretty much half full.
ZACH: Oh yeah, I remember this post.
ALISON: Economy is like empty. So I post a picture of this and I'm like, sort of interesting. What does this say about tourism? And I had a bunch of people being like, “that's one flight.” One flight is not a whole survey. And I'm like, thanks for explaining it was one flight. Thanks.
ZACH: Yes, you needed that. Yes, you wrote a whole book, surely, without any sort of evidence or support.
ALISON: I was just like, did you need to explain that to me? Did you really need to explain that to me? Like, so, and there were a few people then just getting really round up about this and it's just kind of like you don't understand the point of a conversation starter. But it's very, very hard for me to resist getting into arguments with people like that. Very hard.
HUI: Yeah. In general . . . like once I've posted something, I in general tell myself not to respond to any comments. I’m just like, if I actually like them, I like them, but then I don't respond typically. Because if you only respond to the trolls, then you feel like you should also respond to the nice ones. And it's like, where do you draw the lines? I'm just like, you know what my rule is, I don't respond.
ALISON: Yeah, I mean it's going to hit your engagement, Hui, but it's true. I mean this is where I think it becomes a real time suck and this is where if I'm in a particular mood, I can certainly get drawn into the arguing in a way that is not a good use of anybody's time, including mine. Let's put it that way. So maybe one of the conclusions here is that I still ought to know better.
HUI: I know.
ZACH: Absolutely. This is so much fun. I love talking to you. Thank you so much for coming back to The Better Way? You've already done the questionnaire, so we're not going to subject you to that again, but there is at least one question on the questionnaire that sort of varies from day-to-day, and that is, what word would you use to describe your day so far? So what word would you use to describe your day so far, Alison?
ALISON: I would say “sticky.” It is 92 degrees in New York City. I've just been out for a walk. We've got New York City humidity, but then I'm also working on some sticky content in the background, some stuff that will be coming out in the next few months. So it's been sticky professionally and sticky weatherwise.
ZACH: Amazing.
HUI: Love that word.
ZACH: Thank you again, Alison. This has been great. And thank you all for tuning in to The Better Way? Podcast. For more information about this or anything else that’s happening with CDE Advisors, visit our website at www.CDEAdvisors.com, where you can also check out the Better Way blog. And please like and subscribe to this series on Apply or Spotify. And, finally, if you have thoughts about what we talked about today, the work we do here at CDE, or just have ideas for Better Ways we should explore, please don’t hesitate to reach out—we’d love to hear from you. Thanks again for listening.